One of the things I enjoy most about my church is the diversity of political views among the congregation. Growing up in West Michigan and attending Indiana Wesleyan gave me the impression that all Christians were conservative Republicans. Only when I attended Seminary did I learn that there were honest, God fearing Democrats. It was a real shock.
At Barefoot, we are about a 60-40 conservative to liberal mix. To me, this is the perfect balance as it keeps me open to other ideas but my view is still in the majority. Seriously though, this diversity does add some interesting discussion about the world and the church's role in addressing social issues. This debate is very healthy for a church because no one political worldview has the complete truth of the gospel. One observation that I have noted is that most people hold their political views more firmly than their religious or theological convictions. I attribute this phenomenon to the convenient mixture of religion and politics that defines people's religion more by their political views than by their faith.
An example of this thinking occurred last weekend when my roommate's parents came to town. They were very friendly and both firmly Republican. His Dad enjoys politics so he and I hit it off right away. During our conversation his Mom made a statement about a woman that works at the Christian school but still votes Democratic. This was incomprehensible to her and she asked me how to reconcile that. It was interesting for me to explain and defend the liberal mind but having liberal Christian friends made it easier. What's funny is that I used to agree with her notion that being a Democrat and being a Christian were incompatible but the older I get the more I see how limiting this can be to message of the church.
Attaching the church to a particular political agenda runs the risk of turning our message of hope and grace into a message of judgement and power. No wonder people who don't share our political views are turned off by the church. This does not mean that the church should stop being an agent of change in our culture but advancing that change through politics is not the answer. Our hope is in the gospel, not in government.
I know that many of my cconservative friends will read this post and think that I have been indoctrinated by attending a liberal church and will want to argue their tightly held points of view. But my point is not to argue liberal vs conservative positions but simply to highlight that there is room for both views within the church. No in fact, it is imperative to have both views within the church.
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Attaching the church to a particular political agenda runs the risk of turning our message of hope and grace into a message of judgement and power.
Yes! Very well said, Jeff!
I really appreciate your openness to understanding that liberal/progressive folks can also worship, serve, and live out our lives as Christians in ways that can look pretty similar to yours.
Being at Barefoot and developing friendships with people who are Republican has also opened my eyes that not all conservative Christians are evil, closed-minded people. It has led to some interesting discussions, opened my mind, and sharpened both my faith and my politics.
We don't have to live our lives in "faith silos" separated and quick to judge and condemn one another based on our politics.
It's funny how both conservatives and liberals have adopted the liberal stance that "the personal is political" to the point where it blocks understanding and the opportunity to serve Christ together.
I think you're tracking down the right (no pun intended) road, Fetz.
I have to say that your comments give me hope that both sides can work together for the greater good of all people. Even though I don't follow any particular religion, it's nice to know there are people out there, on both sides, that are willing to open their minds to other viewpoints. Personally, I don't follow a religion, but I follow my morals. Anyway, I appreciate the thoughtfulness.
I suppose that would depend on what makes a person liberal. I
If one considers themselves liberal cause they are concerned about poverty, or healthcare, or the environment, than sure it's possible to be a liberal and a Christian. However, if someone considers themselves liberal and a democrat cause they support abortion rights or gay marriage, than there is a problem.
In my simple mind you CANNOT have it both ways. God says he would rather you be HOT or COLD, lukewarm is not his preference.
There is still right and wrong in this world.
If you support and give money and vote for liberal candidates who support the right of a woman to allow a baby to be literally cut, torn, dismembered and sucked out of her womb. Well, I think you have a paradox on your hands.
Now sure, if you can in good conscience vote that way, than I guess who am I to say that you can't consider yourself a Christian, but just cause you consider yourself a Christian, that does not mean God does.
Am I being closed minded. I guess I am, but being someone who was himself considered for an abortion, I think I have a right be on this particular issue.
If you are a Christian, and believe in a Heaven...well then you have to consider that there are right now, millions of little children who did not have a choice in whether they lived or died. Those children probably would tell you that it does matter if you vote liberal or conservative.
Can you be a liberal democrat and a true bible believing Christian? Sure, you can, until you pull the lever in the voting booth, than you are more likely a hypocite.
I knew you were in trouble when my sister, whom is a social worker, someone I used to call our little marx is more conservative than you. But that was years ago.
Wow, I'm not going to start throwing flames and accusations like you have towards me. And throwing your personal story in, while it provides perspective, doesn't excuse the venom that you just spewed here towards Christians like me. You aren't the only one who has a personal story about how these issues impact you. Nor is your view the only or right one that can be held.
Yes, it is also possible to be a Christian and assert gay and lesbian individuals' humanity - until someone can explain to me how you can "love the sinner, hate the sin" and still assert a gay person's humanity, I'll stand by that belief.
As long as marriage is a LEGAL institution in this country, I think they should have be afforded access to the same rights, privileges, AND responsiblities as straight folks have in this country. Call it civil union if it makes you more comfortable - I don't care, I'm not particularly wedded to either term as long as there is equality. When
marriage becomes strictly a RELIGIOUS institution, maybe I'll change my mind.
And yes, it is possible to be Christian and support a woman's right to choose the course of a pregnancy that she is not prepared or equipped to continue. Do I agree with that choice, not necessarily, but it is not mine to make.
I've held the hand, stroked the hair, wiped the tears, and provided comfort to many women through the procedure, and RARELY were they cold-hearted, irresponsible women who didn't give a damn about the child they couldn't bring to life that many people like to paint them as.
It is not a black or white issue or lukewarm issue for me.
I'm sure you and many others would consider that I have blood on my hands for participating in abortion. While you think God is judging and condemning me and giving you and other pro-life folks brownie points for your work, I think he's pleased with me for the love that I've shown a woman at what was probably the most vulnerable and broken time in her life.
Since legislating abortion isn't going to stop it from happening, I would rather it be safe, legal and rare. You don't get to the rare by legislating it and erecting ridiculous and insidious barriers to abortion. You make it rare
by extending access and education to birth control; equipping boys and girls at a young age to treasure their sexuality and not give or take it without discretion; making sure that child care is affordable and accessible; and a host of other policy and social changes to support women and families.
Tameshia,
Wow indeed. First of all, I was not speaking to you personally. I am sorry if I sounded harsh. I have a tendency to come across very opinionated.
However, you raised many things that I feel I must respond to. And no, it's not a black or white issue to me either it's an issue or somethings being right and some things being dead wrong.
I also would never accuse anyone of not being a Christian if they make that claim. That is an issue that only God and that person can know.
Lets talk about the two issues that you raise. Homosexual marriage first. If you are a bible believing Christian, you look at the word of God, the Bible as wholly true and wholly accurate.
The way I see it, you can't take parts of the Bible you like and discard the parts you don't like. Either God's word is true or it isn't. If it's only partly true, that logically, parts of it are not. If parts of it are not true, than none of it is worth the paper it's written on.
I base my view of homosexuality on the perfectly written word of God. It's also based on what I see in nature. God very clearly states that God made man and women. He made them to fit together, he made them to have sex inside the covenant of marriage and procreate and fill the void of the earth.
Genesis 1 verse 27 & 28
So God created man in his own image, in the image of God, he created him, male and female, he created them. God blessed them and said to them, be fruitful and increase in number.
This creation of man was so important to God, that he graced us by creating us in his OWN image. That's huge!! He than did not make another man, he made a WOMAN. That is also huge. God desired that man and woman be joined and have kids. It's that basis of life. Man and Man or woman and woman can't do this. They can't fulfil Gods first and most basic command to humans. Now God did not stop there, he made animals the same way.
When God commanded Noah to create an ark, he did not command Noah to take a male and male of a cow, he commanded him to take a male and female.
Genesis 7 Verse 1-3
"The Lord then said to Noah, "Go into the ark, you and your whole family....Take with you seven or each kind of clean animal (to eat some and have a pair left)a male and his mate, and two of every kind of unclean animal, and male and his mate, and also seven of every kind of bird, MALE AND FEMALE, to keep their varies kinds alive throughout the earth."
Now, how much more clear can God be of his desire. It's just not open to interpretation.
Now let me clarify that ANY kind of sex outside of marriage is wrong and it's a sin. Also I don't believe that any sin is truly greater than any other. So if someone is straight and having premarital sex, it's just as wrong as homosexual sex. However, God specifically said in his word that sex between two of the same sex is an abomination. I don't think he said that cause it made him any more angry to see two guys together, however, he was saying that it goes against nature, it goes against his perfect plan in such a "slap in the face" way that he made him very sad.
When you engage in a homosexual lifestyle, you are literally thumbing your nose at the God that made you and telling him that your way is just as good at his. Does God love you any less...no, he loves you as much as anyone else, but you are telling him he is not who he says he is.
Leviticus 18:22
Do not lie with a man as one lies with a woman, that is detestable.
I could go on, there are many other references to homosexuality in the Bible.
Lets go on to abortion, and I will keep it very short. It's wrong. It's wrong to kill an unborn baby.
A human being is not some piece of flesh and bone, he is made in the IMAGE of the all-mighty GOD. Does that not just blow you away, it does me.
Psalm 139 v 13-16
"For you were created my inmost being you knit me together in my mothers womb. I praise you because I am fearfully and wonderfully made; your works are wonderful, I know that full well. My frame was not hidden from you when I was made in the secret place. When I was woven together in the depths of the earth, your eyes saw my unformed body. All the days ordained for mw were written in your book before one came to be."
It does not matter if a child is wanted or not, he/she can't choose how or when he is conceived or born to. How arrogant for someone to again decide that he or she knows better than God. How arrogant to take that child that GOD knows, that child that God has known from the beginning of time, that child that God loves enough to have a "book" and story written about him and throw that child away like so much trash.
I believe that you held the hand and stroked the hair of a woman having an abortion, and that was kind and generous of you. I would have rather you held that woman's hand and led her out the door before the procedure happened.
If someone screwed up and had sex and got pregnant, does it matter at that point of she is "not ready" to be a mother. The choice was made, the child is there. God created that child, he want's that child to be there.
One last little story to drive this point home. This is true to the last letter. My wife's grandmother was raped by a man. She became pregnant. This was before Roe v Wade, but even back then, no one would have said much if she had decided to end that pregnancy. She as raped for crying out loud. She decided that even in that circumstance, she would have that baby. It was God's baby, it did not matter how that baby got there.
If she would have aborted that child, at least 50 people that are alive today would not be. All these people are all here today cause of the courage of that woman. I think that 9 times out of 10, it takes more guts to have an unwanted baby than to abort him.
I have said way too much. Again, I am sorry if I offended you. My intention was to make the claim that if you claim to be a Christian, it does matter how you vote. God is not a Republican or a Democrat. God is the one true God, the maker of all things, the savior of the world, and to that God, there is right and wrong.
Todd,
I appreciate your response. While I know that you didn't mean your response to *me* personally, I did take it that way because I do take it personally when someone questions who I am as a Christian based on my political beliefs.
I will first say that the scriptural examples that you provided are not new ones to me. I've read them and heard them and had them hurled at me several times before.
You may see my acceptance of homosexuality and my stance on abortion as contradictory to being a bible believing Christian. And that's fine.
I wish I could be a Christian who reads Scripture and can then neatly categorize all things in this world into right and wrong. But I can't. While reading scripture often clarifies things and provides me guidance, it more often than not challenges me and leaves me with more questions than it does answers. Mainly, how do I apply and live it in a world that is at best imperfect, and at worse immensely screwed up. And, how do I live out His command to love others in this world whose choices I don't agree with or think are flat out wrong.
I had a much lengthier comment that got into more on how and why I take the stances that I do on these issues. But, because I don't want to take up any more space on Jeff's blog than I already have, I'll just leave it at this.
I don't see how I can both judge and love at the same time. As far as I understand it, only God can do that. And, He is infinitely more merciful and graceful than I will ever be. As a Christian, above all things, I am instructed to love - myself and others - in ways that are pleasing to God. I don't espouse that I get this right all the time, because I know that I don't. But, I do the best I can with what I've got. And with these issues, the stances that I take are based on the love that I have for the gay and lesbian people in my life; and, on my love and trust in women to make the best choices they can with the emotional, spiritual, and financial resources they have at their disposal.
Tameshia,
On the issue of abortion, I challenge you to watch the following link and the other parts you can find on "You Tube". This affected me greatly when I watched them in college. You will have to look past the accompanying music, etc. But just listen to the facts that are presented and see if it does not affect you as well.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=THS2zZ4m260
Oh what the heck... I'll chime in on this friendly debate.
Have homosexuals been mistreated by both Christians and non-Christians over the centuries? Yes.
Has the Church been harsh, judgmental, unmerciful and unloving for the most part in it's response to the issue of homosexuality? Yes.
Is it OK to harass, badger, threaten, hurt or kill someone because they are gay? Absolutely not!
It seems that because the Church (Catholic, Protestant & Orthodox) in general has been so intolerant in the past on the issue of homosexuality the trend as of late especially in Generations X & Y is to take the non-judgmental, non-condemning, love above all approach.
The problem here is that many people do not truly have the right concept of what the word love means.
My junior year of High School my best friend started going out on the weekends and drinking. After several attempts at discouraging him from doing this, because he was also driving, I went to his parents and told them what was going on. Why? Because I love my friend. Was he made at me? You bet. But after awhile he realized that I did what I did because I loved him and cared about him.
The year after I graduated from college I heard some troubling things about one of my professors, who was also my friend and mentor. The things that I heard and even experienced on a couple of visits to campus threw up some serious red-flags with me. It appeared that my former professor was having an inappropriate relationship with a female student.
One of the toughest things I did was ask him point blank if something was going on? Why did I confront him? Because I loved him and cared about him. While he denied there was anything inappropriate going on it later came to light that there was some inappropriate behavior. He ended up having to resign from the school and ultimately it lead to him and his wife getting a divorce.
True love doesn't blindly accept all things. True love holds people accountable... sometimes we refer to that as "tough love".
For me, the Bible is pretty clear when it comes to the issue of homosexuality. It is a sin. Just like adultery, fornication and divorce are sins.
Can someone be a Christian and struggle with homosexual temptations? Sure. There are a lot of Christians who struggle with the temptations of adultery and fornication.
If one of my married friends cheated on their spouse would I still love them? Absolutely. Would I condone their behavior? Absolutely not!
Can I love someone who is gay? Absolutely? Would I condone it if they engaged in homosexual activity? Absolutely not!
Are people born gay? I think all people are bent with the capacity to sin. For some that may mean struggling with homosexuality. For others it may mean struggling with fornication. For some it may mean struggling with fidelity.
I think the Church needs to be clear on the issue in a firm and loving way. To say that gays aren't welcome at this or that church ultimately hinders the message of Christ.
Jesus' message to the woman caught in adultery was "go and sin no more."
I'd also like to point out that first and foremost marriage is an institution created and ordained by God. The priority on marriage should not be on it's legality in a political sense but rather on the mystical and spiritual union between a man and a woman whereby the "two become one flesh".
Marriage was a "Religious" institution long before it was a "legal" institution. And the religious aspect of it far outweighs the legal aspect of it.
In regards to abortion... It is not right to bomb abortion clinics, kill abortion doctors, harass women who go to abortion clinics, etc.
And I resent the people who do that in God's name.
With that said though, I believe that life in fact does begin at conception.
I find it hypocritical that in our country we legally kill children under the banner of abortion and also convict people like Scott Peterson for the murder of his wife and unborn child. Should he be convicted for both? Without a doubt. But it is hypocritical to do so when abortion is legal.
Jeff, Todd and I went to college with a girl who's parents were told while her mother was pregnant with her that she would be born with severe physical and mental handicaps. Their doctor encouraged them to consider getting an abortion. They decided that no matter what the physical and/or mental condition of their child that they would still have this child.
Well, obviously since the girl went to college she was OK.
If I can be real blunt... if you don't want to get pregnant. Don't have sex! It's that simple for the most part.
Now, are there unwanted pregnancies that result from rape and incest? Yes. But from the information I've seen those account for only a very small percentage of actual abortions each year.
It is true that it is your body. So if you don't want to get pregnant... again, make the "choice" to abstain from having sex (at least unprotected sex). But while condoms help prevent pregnancy to some degree, they don't protect from STD's. And any STD you can get from intercourse you can also get from oral sex.
The bottom line is that our culture is sending the wrong message to teens and young people when it comes to sex.
The message shouldn't be you can't control yourself, give into your passions and have at it, BUT use a condom and be safe.
The message should be you can control your passions, parenthood is a HUGE responsibility (I have 2 kids... I know), marriage isn't just about getting laid either! Marriage takes work, sacrifice, compromise, just to name a few.
The bottom line for me is 2-fold...
1. I think historically the Church has sucked when it has come to dealing with these 2 issues and have in some cases done a lot more damage than good. To change this the Church must communicate the Truth of God's Word lovingly, respectfully, compassionately, and honestly (and by honest I mean there are some things that are right and wrong).
2. I'm sick of these 2 issues being politicized and the only standard for which "Christians" should determine who they are going to vote for.
With that said I am neither a Republican nor a Democrat. I have voted for both and third parties as well.
If anything came across as harsh it wasn't intended to. Blunt? Frank? yeah... but not harsh.
Interesting discussion. Tameshia, sounds like you are strong in compassion. Todd, you are strong in seeking truth and justice. Derek hits on many important points too.
Christians don't have all the right answers, but they should continually pursue Christ in all things. "Love the person, but hate the sin" is a good rule of thumb, but challenging at times.
Re: being open-minded
Tolerance should mean a willingness to listen and be respectful even when you disagree, but too often it is misused to mean you must agree with me or you are intolerant. Being open-minded is ok if it means you are a good listener, but bad if it means you believe everything is relative and that there is no truth in this world. This blog discussion could easily become intolerant, but I don't feel that it has.
Re: abortion
We must be compassionate both to the mothers & FATHERS of unexpected pregnancies. According to the Bible and the US Constitution, the right to life trumps the right to "control owns body" every time. For this and many other reasons, the pre-born child should never be murdered. The "safe, legal, & rare" propoganda is pure lies. The abortion industry is all about money and power. This multi-billion dollar industry refuses even reasonable health regulation and reporting. It is not about offering options to pregnant women, it urges abortion 99% of the time. Abortion is an escape from responsibility and attack against the innocent. It traumatizes both parents. We could go on and on about the evils of abortion, but let's look at solutions. There are plenty of other solutions to unexpected pregnancies. One solution, hold that pregnant woman's hand, love her, support her, and take her to www.bethany.org and show her the hundreds of couples desperate to raise a child. That woman and the father of that pre-born child should know that they can choose a family to raise that precious child and that there is support available to them through the birth of their child and beyond.
re: homsexuality
Derek summarized it pretty well. I thought he made a strong case of the humanity of those who face this temptation. Todd pointed out that God has already judged this behavior. Tameshia challenges us to be kind, gentle, and loving to all.
re: democrat christians
I can relate to their desire to help the poor, the oppressed, etc. But I do not see any evidence in scripture that Christians are to show compassion through BIG government social programs. (That is pretty much the main goal of the Democratic party - more government) I don't see many principles of the Democratic party that I think mesh with scripture. I'm not in total agreement with the Republican party either, but they are the better option most of the time.
Tamesia wrote "I wish I could be a Christian who reads Scripture..."
I think that it is key for all of us as we seek to understand these tough issues. My opinions are worthless, it is God's that matter. Thankfully he has revealed his truth to us in the written word.
You gonna chime in again on this one, Fetz?
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